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Jacobs v. Delgado
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StAiNdRuLeZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that sucks about delgado is his average

other than that he is doing his job

its not as if we traded our best prospects and delgado went on to hit

12 homers and 34 rbi

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Wright4tw
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theprez86 wrote:
spadanko wrote:
theprez86 wrote:
I was opposed to the trade from Day 1. This is just the beginning. Jacobs will gradually get better at a bragain basement price while Delgado will gradually decline at a King's ransom.


he is only signed through next season


First of all, Delgado is signed for two more seasons after this one. Second of all, I'm not sure how believing he he signe only for next year makes it any better. Under that scenario, the Mets traded a CHEAP, up and coming slugger for a two year rental.


Yeah thats what you do when you are going for it all and your top two pitchers are nearing their end, you have to win in the next two years. Anyone know which 1b will be a FA when Delgado's contract is up just out of curiosity?


Delgado has the ability to CARRY this team when he is hitting well, something Jacobs could never do. He takes ALOT of perssure of Beltran and gives him great protection. His numbers will be there at the end of the year like they always are. Only player to hit 30 or more HR's in the last 10 years?
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SDscall



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dachampishere wrote:
Do you really think that Carlos Beltran and David Wright will be having the type of years they're having if mike jacobs hit behind em? Delgado is an established power threat who makes hitters in his lineup relax and opposing pitchers hesitate. Right now it looks like we fleeced the marlins.


You cannot prove or disprove that theory. David Wright had a pretty darned good year last season, this could be his natural progression. Beltran had many good seasons playing as the only offensive force in the Royals lineup. He was also hurt much of last year and it was his first season in NY.

And let me say this, right now, numbers-wise the only thing Delgado really has over Jacobs is he's not utterly atricious vs. lefties. If Jacobs could hit LHPs with any sort of decency, this conversation would be a lot more valid.
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StAiNdRuLeZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDscall wrote:
dachampishere wrote:
Do you really think that Carlos Beltran and David Wright will be having the type of years they're having if mike jacobs hit behind em? Delgado is an established power threat who makes hitters in his lineup relax and opposing pitchers hesitate. Right now it looks like we fleeced the marlins.


You cannot prove or disprove that theory. David Wright had a pretty darned good year last season, this could be his natural progression. Beltran had many good seasons playing as the only offensive force in the Royals lineup. He was also hurt much of last year and it was his first season in NY.

And let me say this, right now, numbers-wise the only thing Delgado really has over Jacobs is he's not utterly atricious vs. lefties. If Jacobs could hit LHPs with any sort of decency, this conversation would be a lot more valid.


actually beltran ahd sweeny behind him in KS

dont forget sweeny was once a pretty good player

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metfan1971



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My father used to say that even a stopped clock is right twice per day. Some people just dumped on this original post because it was written by flyers, but in this case he's making a good point. There's a big difference in age and salary between the two players. The payoff for the deal has to come in the first 1 to 3 years. So far, Delgado is not putting enough distance between himself and Jacobs to justify the differences in age and money (not to mention the inclusion of Petit). Early in the year when Jacobs was flopping and Delgado was red hot it looked like we got a steal, but things have evened up considerably since then. Delgado may have a monster 2nd half. Pitchers may find a huge hole in Jacobs swing. Petit may never turn into a ML quality pitcher. This may end up the best deal in the history of the Mets, but right now the numbers aren't saying that it was such a steal.

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spadanko



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theprez86 wrote:
spadanko wrote:
theprez86 wrote:
spadanko wrote:
theprez86 wrote:
I was opposed to the trade from Day 1. This is just the beginning. Jacobs will gradually get better at a bragain basement price while Delgado will gradually decline at a King's ransom.


he is only signed through next season


First of all, Delgado is signed for two more seasons after this one. Second of all, I'm not sure how believing he he signe only for next year makes it any better. Under that scenario, the Mets traded a CHEAP, up and coming slugger for a two year rental.


how exactly is it s rental for 2 years? and if he is signed for 2 more years, then it is a "3 year rental" i think rentals run out after a couple of months...

and getting a proven slugger for a kid with only 100 major league ABs is fine by me... plus you are getting a veteran and a great clubhouse guy.


I thought my post was actually quite clear. I'll repeat:

You said he was only signed through next season.

I responded that you were incorrect and he was actually signed for TWO more years.

I then went on to question why you thinking he was signed only through next season would make it any better. Under that scenario, the Mets traded Jacobs and Petit for a two year rental.

I hope that clears up my point.


after i posted it, i re-read and then understood your point... i still don't consider 2 years being a rental... i still would make the deal again

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SDscall



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StAiNdRuLeZ wrote:

actually beltran ahd sweeny behind him in KS

dont forget sweeny was once a pretty good player


Oh yeah... fair point.

I still stand by my greater point that you can't say things so mater-of-factly about Delgado based on intangible stuff you can't quantify. His stats haven't been there so far, and that may soon be cause for, at least, some concern.
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StAiNdRuLeZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he will be ok

He had a good april and batted .298 with 9 homers and 20 rbi

he had A HORRIBLE may batting .208 but still had 6 homers and 14 rbi

rebounded back in june with .291 average 7 homers 21 rbi

july is going slow 0 homers and only 1 rbi batting .100

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juvalera



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDscall wrote:
dachampishere wrote:
Do you really think that Carlos Beltran and David Wright will be having the type of years they're having if mike jacobs hit behind em? Delgado is an established power threat who makes hitters in his lineup relax and opposing pitchers hesitate. Right now it looks like we fleeced the marlins.


You cannot prove or disprove that theory. David Wright had a pretty darned good year last season, this could be his natural progression. Beltran had many good seasons playing as the only offensive force in the Royals lineup. He was also hurt much of last year and it was his first season in NY.

And let me say this, right now, numbers-wise the only thing Delgado really has over Jacobs is he's not utterly atricious vs. lefties. If Jacobs could hit LHPs with any sort of decency, this conversation would be a lot more valid.


Not to mention that Cabrera is having a better year WITHOUT Delgado in the lineup and look at what a nobody like Uggla is doing without Delgado. In fact Delgado's never been shown to make any hitters around him better just by being in the lineup, ever. The theory is pretty much worthless. Beltran's playing well because he's a good player and he was so bad last year and hurt and things are evening out. And Wright actually isn't even playing that much better than he did last year - .961 vs. .911.
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eharris25



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention the fact that in an emergency, Jacobs could also catch for us if we still had him. Sorry, this thread is hilarious and I just had to add that in for my own personal amusement. Carry on.

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senor_mike
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delgado should bounce back in the 2nd half.

Predicators which indicate a 2nd half bounce back:
- His HR rate is ahead of where he was last year
- His BB rate is the same as last year even though is IBBs are down
- His K rate is right at his career norms
- His BA on balls in play is much lower than it has been in years past (.262 this year vs. .344 in 05 and .293 in 04)

Predicators which indicate he's the career downturn:
- His linedrive percentage is 5% lower than typical.

I feel that so far this season Delgado has run into a combination of some bad luck and being a bit off his swing (LD% and in turn 2B are down). Reason I say this is because his 'negative' rates are not nearly far enough off to answer his .252 BA (which is what is killing his OPS).

He's at .252/.857 right now, I predict he finishes the season at around .270/.900

EDIT

Whoops, this was supposed to go in the other Delgado thread.

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Last edited by senor_mike on Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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BobbyV13



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a silly thread. God Bless Mike Jacobs and proud we are of him, but anyone who is going to look at a stat line alone and think the Mets screwed up here belongs playing fantasy or statomatic and not discussing real live baseball.

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eharris25



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobbyV13 wrote:
This is a silly thread. God Bless Mike Jacobs and proud we are of him, but anyone who is going to look at a stat line alone and think the Mets screwed up here belongs playing fantasy or statomatic and not discussing real live baseball.


One would think that this is common sense, but not in Met fan land.

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juvalera



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobbyV13 wrote:
This is a silly thread. God Bless Mike Jacobs and proud we are of him, but anyone who is going to look at a stat line alone and think the Mets screwed up here belongs playing fantasy or statomatic and not discussing real live baseball.


If you're not going to explain to us why the "stat line" doesn't accurately capture what happened in the "real live baseball" games that Delgado and Jacobs played, then your statement is worthless. The statistics are simply a record of what happened during the games so we can measure the rate of success each player had at doing the things that make you good at the game. They are fundamental to discussing real live baseball.

The only people who don't like stats are people who like to hang on to fairy tale, unprovable fantasies and beliefs that fly in the face of all reason because it somehow gives them a warm feeling inside.
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MetZzZzZz



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if we dont have delgado and we havd jacobs... a whole bunch of things change... chemistry...big bat presence... now... if ur saying that u are willing no to have a dominating line-up on paper rather then have a kid who could become a pretty good 1b but doesnt provide the protection delgado does now then ok... Delgado>Jacobs... no matter what way u put it... age and money... ok... thats stupid... the money fine ok... but the age? so u basically would want a younger guy with practically no major league experience take over for veterens? theres a difference between prepairing for the future then preparing for a w.s.... if u want to be in the running to win a w.s. this year or next year who do u pick?
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SDscall



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MetZzZzZz wrote:
if we dont have delgado and we havd jacobs... a whole bunch of things change... chemistry...big bat presence... now... if ur saying that u are willing no to have a dominating line-up on paper rather then have a kid who could become a pretty good 1b but doesnt provide the protection delgado does now then ok... Delgado>Jacobs... no matter what way u put it... age and money... ok... thats stupid... the money fine ok... but the age? so u basically would want a younger guy with practically no major league experience take over for veterens? theres a difference between prepairing for the future then preparing for a w.s.... if u want to be in the running to win a w.s. this year or next year who do u pick?


Will you admit that Delgado has underperformed so far?
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Wright4tw
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eharris25 wrote:
Not to mention the fact that in an emergency, Jacobs could also catch for us if we still had him. Sorry, this thread is hilarious and I just had to add that in for my own personal amusement. Carry on.


Delgado started out as a catcher too! Laughing
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metfan1971



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MetZzZzZz wrote:
if we dont have delgado and we havd jacobs... a whole bunch of things change... chemistry...big bat presence... now... if ur saying that u are willing no to have a dominating line-up on paper rather then have a kid who could become a pretty good 1b but doesnt provide the protection delgado does now then ok... Delgado>Jacobs... no matter what way u put it... age and money... ok... thats stupid... the money fine ok... but the age? so u basically would want a younger guy with practically no major league experience take over for veterens? theres a difference between prepairing for the future then preparing for a w.s.... if u want to be in the running to win a w.s. this year or next year who do u pick?


Of course age matters. If you can either get X points of OBP from a 25 year old or a 34 year old, you pick the 25 year old every time. You pick the younger guy because it's reasonable to believe that his numbers will continue to get better for the next two years and then stay at that level for the next five. On the other hand it's reasonable to expect the 34 year old to decline.

The only reasons you trade a 25 year old for a 34 year old are

1) if you believe the 25 year old will never amount to much, or at least
2) in the short term (1 or 2 years), the older guy will significantly out perform the younger guy.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of us were right about this one.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haha Flyers - where u at?
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