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They traded Nady?! (OFFICIAL TRADE THREAD)
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JPSchmack
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most of the disappointment stems from NOT getting a starter and now having a hole in RF.

People should look at it this way, if you have to have a hole, would you rather have it be your 8th inning setup guy, or your #8 hitter?

We traded a weakness -- thin bullpen due to Sanchez's injury for weak RF spot.

The weakness we NOW have is LESS important, AND we have our best prospect as a potential solution for it.

This was problem solving at its best.
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Wright4tw
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a good trade to make...in the off season.

I don't like us weakining out bench with having Chavez start or sharing time with Milledge. I have zero confidence in Marrero, what if Castro's injury turns out to be more serious? Marrero become the back up then who's on our bench. We also have nobody to pinch run in a tight spot if Chavez is starting.

Roberto basically is a righty specialist (which we have Bradford for) with Sanchez gone Heilman is going to be called upon for that eight inning job. You can't say we had to replace Sanchez because Roberto isnt doing that, he's replacing Heilman i guess...who most wanted traded (including me). We could of put Pelfrey in the pen, Maine, Bannister, Owens...there are alot of options we could of used internally and still had the best or one of the best pens in the league.

Perez, sigh, personally i think he's a one year wonder. Yeah he's lefty and young, ONCE upon a time threw hard. He has "potential" (what a ugly word). Fine, not a bad project for the off season but not something that needed to be done now. The guy couldnt find his release point if it jumped up and smacked him in his dumb ass head, his velocity is down, you can only hope its because of a change in mechanics.


I really hope Milledge can come up and contribute like he has the "potentail" to and not be a PR burden to the team. For me, that will change my opinion from thinking this is a bad trade to good.
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ClingingMars



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuck, I liked Nady.

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Sharku
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think most of the disappointment stems from NOT getting a starter and now having a hole in RF


No [CENSORED] lol. I woke up actually expecting Omar to get Oswalt and instead get the Nady deal.

Omar did the best he could. I actually think he balanced the present and the future very well here. He simply HAD to do something.

He gave up a cheap decent OF yes- but one I believe would've been traded in the offseason anyway for various reasons. And he did get a 25 year old lefty with electric stuff, who can also be turned into someone else in the offseason if Omar chooses. In the meantime, the future is now for Milledge I suppose.

At the end of the day, IF Perez turns out to be a bust.....well, the Mets didn't pay too steep a price.

Just sucks that it had to go down this way

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theprez86



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elotk wrote:
Prez, i was with you on every single point you made about Milledge in relation to the Zito discussion, but your reaching here. I liked Nady, but he is VERY replacable. The guy is an average corner outfielder, with some pop, but nothing else. By losing Nady, we lose a few homeruns, but we gain defense, speed, and the dropoff in hitting is probably no more than .020 points.

Nady is replacable, and has little upside, simple as that.


eLOT


I agree that Nady is replaceable. He's a pedestrian outfielder at best.

My two main problems with the deal are:

1) I believe Nady is worth more than what they got.

and

2) Because the outfield depth as thined, Milledge cannot be used as a potential trading chip for a young, cheap, ace pitcher if one becomes available in the offseason.

On a side note, if any of the Mets starting outfielders go down between now and October, they are in trouble.
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StAiNdRuLeZ
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theprez86 wrote:


On a side note, if any of the Mets starting outfielders go down between now and October, they are in trouble.


that would be the case with or without nady


you cant replace what beltran is doing with any prospect or supersub

Floyd has been nothing short of a huge failure

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theprez86



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StAiNdRuLeZ wrote:
theprez86 wrote:


On a side note, if any of the Mets starting outfielders go down between now and October, they are in trouble.


that would be the case with or without nady


you cant replace what beltran is doing with any prospect or supersub

Floyd has been nothing short of a huge failure


What do you mean that would have eben the case with or without Nady.

Previously, if one of the outfielders went down, either Chavez or Milledge could fill in and the mets would still have a reliable outfielder on the bench for late game situations. Now if one of the outfielders goes down they have no reliable outfielder on the bench. I'm not saying that it's a huge problem but the depth has certainly taken a hit.
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Harpua



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those worried about the future and trading away chips for less then what they are worth, here is who we still have in the system:

Humber - I especially like this one
Pelfrey
Niese
Milledge - No Milledge for Livan/Armas Jr/some rental for "win now" purposes
Owens
F Martinez
Maine
Bannister
Deolis Guerra
Among others

Who'd we add to that prospect list now? Perez, a power lefty that has shitty mechanics. Upside is he works out his problems with Peterson and becomes a #2, or possibly a #1 ace. He's also just 24. Downside, he's crap and stays that way, but a good gamble considering Peterson and his reputation as a mechanics guru.

For win now purposes we got - Berto - proven reliever that can take most of the burden away of loosing Dirty at the last second before the deadline.

Who'd we give up?

Nady

There are no stats needed. Omar clearly won this trade.

If Dirty makes it back, (although I don't think that will happen), we are in an even stronger pitching situation then we were before.
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m2c2c2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="theprez86"]

Hey prez,

To me, Nady was an average to slightly below average ML rightfielder. He had a solid first half, way beyond my expectations, but he didn't have the plus plus arm or the plus plus power I'd like to see out of a big market RFer.

To me, this has been one of the glaring mistakes we have made in recent years, failing to complement above average offense at catcher (Piazza) or shortstop (Reyes) with at least average offense in power slots like RF (see Timo Perez) and first base (until Delgado).

Endy and Milledge are good 3-4 guys. I also like the option to sub more for Cliff to keep him fresh, or actually to keep him alive.

All that said, I bet we pick up a thumper 4-5 OF bat somewhere to come in late, maybe like a Burnitz type. But, those aren't hard to find, to circle back to my point.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theprez86 wrote:
elotk wrote:
Prez, i was with you on every single point you made about Milledge in relation to the Zito discussion, but your reaching here. I liked Nady, but he is VERY replacable. The guy is an average corner outfielder, with some pop, but nothing else. By losing Nady, we lose a few homeruns, but we gain defense, speed, and the dropoff in hitting is probably no more than .020 points.

Nady is replacable, and has little upside, simple as that.


eLOT


I agree that Nady is replaceable. He's a pedestrian outfielder at best.

My two main problems with the deal are:

1) I believe Nady is worth more than what they got.

and

2) Because the outfield depth as thined, Milledge cannot be used as a potential trading chip for a young, cheap, ace pitcher if one becomes available in the offseason.

On a side note, if any of the Mets starting outfielders go down between now and October, they are in trouble.


u think we didnt get enough for nady? i think we got a steal in this... we got a pitcher who was money for us and replaces sanchez... and we got a potential ace... who if not for the pirates dumb coaching would still be dominant... i was suprised we got perez and we just gave up nady...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that Nady might have been worth more is hard to come to a conclusion on, as in the selling world, the market price is the price you get. I think my house is worth 900K, but if no one will buy it for that price then is it worth that much?

Perez has a lot of question marks, but so does the Pirates organization, so maybe our guys can straighten him out for 2007.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then again, we didn't get enough for Cameron either....not that we want to start that discussion again.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theprez86 wrote:
elotk wrote:
Prez, i was with you on every single point you made about Milledge in relation to the Zito discussion, but your reaching here. I liked Nady, but he is VERY replacable. The guy is an average corner outfielder, with some pop, but nothing else. By losing Nady, we lose a few homeruns, but we gain defense, speed, and the dropoff in hitting is probably no more than .020 points.

Nady is replacable, and has little upside, simple as that.


eLOT


I agree that Nady is replaceable. He's a pedestrian outfielder at best.

My two main problems with the deal are:

1) I believe Nady is worth more than what they got.

and

2) Because the outfield depth as thined, Milledge cannot be used as a potential trading chip for a young, cheap, ace pitcher if one becomes available in the offseason.

On a side note, if any of the Mets starting outfielders go down between now and October, they are in trouble.


Prez, you know I love you man, but honestly you're really just focusing on the negatives here.

1) While I strongly disagree that Nady was worth more than what we got, let me approach this response in another manner. If the Mets had Oliver Perez in 2004, he went on stink through 06, and we bundled him with a reliever to pick up Xavier Nady you would have absolutely flipped out for selling Perez off at lowest possible value (like Littlefield just did). Yes I'm making an assumption on this, but I feel like I'm familiar enough with your mantras to do so.

2) Why not? Come off-season A) Gomez and Fernando's value will be even higher than what it is now and B) the Mets can pick up anywhere from a replacement level to star level OF to address their OF depth.

Regarding the OF being in trouble if someone goes down: well, what about our bullpen? Prior to the trade the bullpen WAS in trouble, deep trouble. That void had to be filled, and the Mets dealt from a position of strength in order to do so, exactly like they are supposed to.

However, in the end I feel like the biggest mistake you make is that you seem to be forgetting/ignoring the fact that the real reason this trade went down is because our bullpen anchor just got knocked out for the year. Considering the situation, I am shocked that not only was Omar able to address this issue w/o getting raped by an opposing GM, but he was also able to acquire a future-looking component who has already displayed an ability to produce at the MLB level that absolutely dwarves anything that Nady has ever or will ever do.

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Wright4tw
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They filled the void internally with Heilman, you telling me we couldnt fill internally the 7th inning spot in the pen? Hernandez is a freaking righty specialist at this point.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wright4tw wrote:
They filled the void internally with Heilman, you telling me we couldnt fill internally the 7th inning spot in the pen? Hernandez is a freaking righty specialist at this point.


The problem with filling that void specifically is that Sanchez was a high-leverage guy. Now Heilman steps directly into Dirty's role as key setup guy, but the Mets then need to fill Heilman's slot (which is almost as high-leverage). It is extremely unlikely that they are going to give that position to a farm-hand because you need someone in that role who has done it before.

More importantly, they don't have anyone immediately available in the minors who has shown they can be more than a specialist (outside of Owens, but the lack of faith in that straight fastball of his is understandable). Hernandez might be a specialist so far this season, but at least with him you know what your baseline is. You also have the added benefit of possessing a pitching coach that understands him (and his flaws).

No, Hernandez isn't a great reliever b/c of his struggles vs lefties, but he'll buy the necessary time to get the Mets by. He knows the role, the organization, and has the experience.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They filled the void internally with Heilman, you telling me we couldnt fill internally the 7th inning spot in the pen? Hernandez is a freaking righty specialist at this point.


Of course they could have tried, but obviously Omar felt he needed someone more tested. I liked Nady, and perhaps we should have gotten a bit more, but not much.

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Wright4tw
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think 2 months is plenty of time for somebody, Owens, or another to step up and solidy the 7th spot as well as Hernandez is going to do or better. And thus keeping our OF depth and bench intact. We could of then revisted the trade since we knew it was an option, in the off season if they were really big on getting Perez.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chad Bradford has more experience at getting outs with runners on base tha any RP his age.

His job in Oakland was "fireman. High leverage situations. Strand inherited runners"

I think he was being under-used.

He should have no problem being the 7th inning guy, with Roberto being a specialist.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wright4tw wrote:
I think 2 months is plenty of time for somebody, Owens, or another to step up and solidy the 7th spot as well as Hernandez is going to do or better. And thus keeping our OF depth and bench intact. We could of then revisted the trade since we knew it was an option, in the off season if they were really big on getting Perez.

Well in that case someone would HAVE to step up. But really who is that guy? Owens doesn't seem like it because his fastball is too straight, and Maine and Pelfrey should not be turned into relievers. Lima? Iriki? etc. Chance of failure is pretty high.

Secondly, in the off-season there is no reason for that trade, because Hernandez isn't needed then. He is needed between now and October.

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theprez86



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

senor_mike wrote:
theprez86 wrote:
elotk wrote:
Prez, i was with you on every single point you made about Milledge in relation to the Zito discussion, but your reaching here. I liked Nady, but he is VERY replacable. The guy is an average corner outfielder, with some pop, but nothing else. By losing Nady, we lose a few homeruns, but we gain defense, speed, and the dropoff in hitting is probably no more than .020 points.

Nady is replacable, and has little upside, simple as that.


eLOT


I agree that Nady is replaceable. He's a pedestrian outfielder at best.

My two main problems with the deal are:

1) I believe Nady is worth more than what they got.

and

2) Because the outfield depth as thined, Milledge cannot be used as a potential trading chip for a young, cheap, ace pitcher if one becomes available in the offseason.

On a side note, if any of the Mets starting outfielders go down between now and October, they are in trouble.


Prez, you know I love you man, but honestly you're really just focusing on the negatives here.

1) While I strongly disagree that Nady was worth more than what we got, let me approach this response in another manner. If the Mets had Oliver Perez in 2004, he went on stink through 06, and we bundled him with a reliever to pick up Xavier Nady you would have absolutely flipped out for selling Perez off at lowest possible value (like Littlefield just did). Yes I'm making an assumption on this, but I feel like I'm familiar enough with your mantras to do so.

2) Why not? Come off-season A) Gomez and Fernando's value will be even higher than what it is now and B) the Mets can pick up anywhere from a replacement level to star level OF to address their OF depth.

Regarding the OF being in trouble if someone goes down: well, what about our bullpen? Prior to the trade the bullpen WAS in trouble, deep trouble. That void had to be filled, and the Mets dealt from a position of strength in order to do so, exactly like they are supposed to.

However, in the end I feel like the biggest mistake you make is that you seem to be forgetting/ignoring the fact that the real reason this trade went down is because our bullpen anchor just got knocked out for the year. Considering the situation, I am shocked that not only was Omar able to address this issue w/o getting raped by an opposing GM, but he was also able to acquire a future-looking component who has already displayed an ability to produce at the MLB level that absolutely dwarves anything that Nady has ever or will ever do.


I hear ya' mike. And as always I appreciate your well thought-out explanation. I don't believe this trade is as bad as I originally thought.

One thing I do raise an issue with however is Hernandez' value. I'm not sure if he really is much of an upgrade over what the mets could otherwise throw out there. Sure, he has a good ERA this year but I believe that his 1.6something WHIP shows that he's been very lucky about giving up runs. The law of averages is bound to catch up.
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