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Mets: not even close to contention
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Edge03



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gallstone wrote:
Well b/c thats the gm job, not mine, I don't know who is available etc.

But one thing I would have done is get one young or in-prime core player to to with Reyes, Wright and Beltran for either 2b, RF or LF. THat way they don't have to fill five holes come 2008 or 2009.

If the only person available turns out to be Sorriano, I would have paid the money. No one is bitching about paying Pedro's contact and that will only be for 2 more years.


Then I would use pelfry as a centerpiece in a trade for starting pitching and also get Zito.

alot of cash but so what. this team has no bad contracts and can take a risk.


How does a 31-39 year old (as Soriano would be for us) fit into your young/in the prime player?

You can't pay Alou 8 mil at 41 but you'll pay Soriano 19 mil at 39?
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Edge03



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharku wrote:
If Ben Johnson becomes the next Xavier Nady, let alone Jason Bay, Omar will have done well again. Heck, even if Johnson becomes the next Endy Chavez, he's done well.

Gall, I'm as big a realist (or pessimist depending who you ask) as they come, and I wouldn't have signed Soriano for that deal. I don't think you need to worry about the core and 5 holes to fill in 2008. Next year the OF market will be MUCH better than then slim pickings available this year. As for 1B, 2B and C......Omar will deal with them as necessary. If nobody is available, nobody is available. I'd still bet Omar brings in another guy for 2b.


I agree completely. Not to mention next year we'll also have a much better idea of what Milledge/Gomez/Fernando really will become... Milledge might be gone, Gomez might be ready, and we'll see if Fernando can live up to the hype and progress. That will effect how we evaluate our OF for the future.
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gallstone



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

your paying for the years he will be 31-37, 37 in other words LaDucas and Delgados ages right now
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timoscar



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gallstone wrote:
Well b/c thats the gm job, not mine, I don't know who is available etc.

But one thing I would have done is get one young or in-prime core player to to with Reyes, Wright and Beltran for either 2b, RF or LF. THat way they don't have to fill five holes come 2008 or 2009.

If the only person available turns out to be Sorriano, I would have paid the money. No one is bitching about paying Pedro's contact and that will only be for 2 more years.


Then I would use pelfry as a centerpiece in a trade for starting pitching and also get Zito.

alot of cash but so what. this team has no bad contracts and can take a risk.


So it's been a bad offseason because Omar hasn't signed any bad, long-term contracts? If we can get a "young or in-prime core player" that doesn't play CF, 3B or SS, you can bet that Omar will be all over it. But you also don't try filling holes that aren't there.

Sure, it'd be nice to have somebody ready to go at 1B or C in 2-3 years when Delgado and LoDuca are either gone or not worthy of playing every day (if that's actually the case, which none of us know) but you don't sign somebody NOW when there isn't an opening.

That's why you have minor leagues. To develop those players. (Cough: Carp; Cough, Cough: Flores) If they aren't good enough by the time we're ready to replace Delgado or LoDuca, you can be assured that we'll go out and get those players.

Can you admit that it's early and that there is absolutely no reason to complain about ANY of the players who have recently signed and are therefore off the market? I know you love Soriano and obviously would have paid out the ass to get him, but does he fit the "young or in-prime core player" description? Even if only the first 2-3 years of an 8 year contract are "in-prime?"
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poopdoop



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gallstone wrote:
your paying for the years he will be 31-37, 37 in other words LaDucas and Delgados ages right now


At which point he still wouldn't be worth the amount of money he'd be getting to be a corner outfielder

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gallstone



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why will the market next year not be inflated, 50:50 chance it could even be worse than this year
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BelloChenzo



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted Soriano, too. But not for 139 million over seven years.

There will be better trade/free agent options over the next two years to fill outfield holes, and we also have some young in-house possibilities to monitor as well. No sense getting caught up in a terrible contract(s) when better options are available.

As for second base, I still think we have a shot at Lugo if he isn't getting the love he's looking for elsewhere. If not, I'm perfectly comfortable going into next year with Pornstache as the starter.

You mention the holes that will need filling at 1B and C in the next few years, but that just further illustrates the need for fiscal responsibility at certain positions this year. Of course, Omar being Omar, he's practicing fiscal responsibility without sacrificing talent. We're better in left field today than we were when we ended the season. We're better on the bench, too.

Now we go to work on the pitching.
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paddle head



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharku wrote:
If Ben Johnson becomes the next Xavier Nady, let alone Jason Bay, Omar will have done well again. Heck, even if Johnson becomes the next Endy Chavez, he's done well.

Gall, I'm as big a realist (or pessimist depending who you ask) as they come, and I wouldn't have signed Soriano for that deal. I don't think you need to worry about the core and 5 holes to fill in 2008. Next year the OF market will be MUCH better than then slim pickings available this year. As for 1B, 2B and C......Omar will deal with them as necessary. If nobody is available, nobody is available. I'd still bet Omar brings in another guy for 2b.


Behold Sharku, "the voice of reason".


(legit compliment BTW)

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poopdoop



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gallstone wrote:
why will the market next year not be inflated, 50:50 chance it could even be worse than this year


it all depends, the reason it was so ridiculous this year is becayse there were too above average outfielders out there (who arent even really elite players at this point) so teams overreacted and gave them way to much money.

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gallstone



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timoscar wrote:
gallstone wrote:
Well b/c thats the gm job, not mine, I don't know who is available etc.

But one thing I would have done is get one young or in-prime core player to to with Reyes, Wright and Beltran for either 2b, RF or LF. THat way they don't have to fill five holes come 2008 or 2009.

If the only person available turns out to be Sorriano, I would have paid the money. No one is bitching about paying Pedro's contact and that will only be for 2 more years.


Then I would use pelfry as a centerpiece in a trade for starting pitching and also get Zito.



alot of cash but so what. this team has no bad contracts and can take a risk.


So it's been a bad offseason because Omar hasn't signed any bad, long-term contracts? If we can get a "young or in-prime core player" that doesn't play CF, 3B or SS, you can bet that Omar will be all over it. But you also don't try filling holes that aren't there.

Sure, it'd be nice to have somebody ready to go at 1B or C in 2-3 years when Delgado and LoDuca are either gone or not worthy of playing every day (if that's actually the case, which none of us know) but you don't sign somebody NOW when there isn't an opening.

That's why you have minor leagues. To develop those players. (Cough: Carp; Cough, Cough: Flores) If they aren't good enough by the time we're ready to replace Delgado or LoDuca, you can be assured that we'll go out and get those players.

Can you admit that it's early and that there is absolutely no reason to complain about ANY of the players who have recently signed and are therefore off the market? I know you love Soriano and obviously would have paid out the ass to get him, but does he fit the "young or in-prime core player" description? Even if only the first 2-3 years of an 8 year contract are "in-prime?"


I can't agrue with homers that overvalue thier prospects, any board on ESPN will have the same list of prospects ready to be productive major league players and no matter how reasonable you try to be you can't fight the wishful thinking thing,

but notice how I want to keep Milledge
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Edge03



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gallstone wrote:
your paying for the years he will be 31-37, 37 in other words LaDucas and Delgados ages right now


A 34 year old Delgado had an OPS 2 points lower then a 30 year old Soriano.

A 34 year old LoDuca still had a higher OBP and Batting Ave then a 30 year old Soriano. That's a catcher getting on base more then a 18 million dollar "offensive star"

The combined salary of both players will equal just about what Soriano will make when he is 34.

And 8 years would mean you are paying for Soriano from 31-38.
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timoscar



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gallstone wrote:
why will the market next year not be inflated, 50:50 chance it could even be worse than this year


"The Market" isn't the same as "The Free-agent Crop of Available OFers."

I'd rather pay 18mil a year to a more well-rounded player like Vernon Wells than I would to Soriano. Not that I necessarily want to pay that much for either, but at least you're getting better value with Wells. So what if we have to wait a year. You sign Soriano and there's a 0% chance of getting someone like Wells.
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gallstone



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

poopdoop wrote:
gallstone wrote:
why will the market next year not be inflated, 50:50 chance it could even be worse than this year


it all depends, the reason it was so ridiculous this year is becayse there were too above average outfielders out there (who arent even really elite players at this point) so teams overreacted and gave them way to much money.


personally I thing the inflated market is fueled by the profit sharing and lux tax sharing not how many elite players are available. More teams have more money to spend. its not just the Yank, Mets, BoSox and ANgels anymore.
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SiddFinch



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worrying to "fix" 1B and C now, in the midst of an insane seller's market, is plain idiotic. That's like buyings barrels and barrels of gasoline at 4 bucks a gallon because your car' gonna need a lot of gas next year.
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timoscar



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gallstone wrote:


I can't agrue with homers that overvalue thier prospects, any board on ESPN will have the same list of prospects ready to be productive major league players and no matter how reasonable you try to be you can't fight the wishful thinking thing,

but notice how I want to keep Milledge


Where did I "overvalue" them? LoDuca and Delgado are probably both at least a couple years away from being washed up, barring any catastrophic injuries. Both are also 34, btw, not 37...

In 2-3 years, we will have an idea if Carp and/or Flores can be everyday players at the ML level. That is not overvaluing. That's saying that we don't need to try to address a hole 3-4 years before it happens.
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Sharku
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
why will the market next year not be inflated, 50:50 chance it could even be worse than this year


I'm sure it will BUT at least there will be some quality guys out there as opposed to Gary Matthews Jr

Quote:
Behold Sharku, "the voice of reason".


Heh.....lets remember this shining moment when in 6 months or so I'm ranting about something or other hate-mazzata

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poopdoop



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The teams that have spent ridiculous amounts of money are teams that have always been able to spend money...Houston Chicago LA...it isn't like Kansas City or Oakland gave Carlos Lee 100 mill...trust me if there were 5 outfielders out there or even if it wasn't a forgone conclusion that the Red Sox would sign Drew...they owuldnt have gotten this much money. The Cubs bid against themselves as it is for Soriano

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BelloChenzo



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not overvaluing anyone, I'm saying we have some prospects we need to monitor. They might be part of the solution _ be it as members of the team or as trade bait _ or they may turn out to be total crap. We'll see, obviously. But to simply dismiss them like you do because they're still in the development stage is irrational.

Omar has shown he knows how to peddle prospects _ be they overhyped or the real deal _ by fleecing the Marlins of Delgado and Lo Duca, a pair of heart and soul players for us. He knows what he's doing.

You don't even know who's available.
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timoscar



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BelloChenzo wrote:
I'm not overvaluing anyone, I'm saying we have some prospects we need to monitor. They might be part of the solution _ be it as members of the team or as trade bait _ or they may turn out to be total crap. We'll see, obviously. But to simply dismiss them like you do because they're still in the development stage is irrational.

Omar has shown he knows how to peddle prospects _ be they overhyped or the real deal _ by fleecing the Marlins of Delgado and Lo Duca, a pair of heart and soul players for us. He knows what he's doing.

You don't even know who's available.


And with that, there's nothing else to say...
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bphunk
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without getting two good starting pitchers, I think the Mets are in trouble. But it's November 27th, not January 27th.

And I do understand some peoples point, you can not expect LoDuca to put up the numbers he put up last year again. Beltran too. And Green as our RF does not excite me at all. And the El Duque contract is a bad one, I don't care what anyone says. The guy takes half the year off, he should have been signed to replace Darren Oliver, not to be a #4 starter.

But again, let's see what happens in the next 4 weeks.
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