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If LoDuca gets average to.. .310 for haters.. .320 for Hire
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senor_mike
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DjPiLL wrote:
senor_mike wrote:

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The job of the #2 hitter is to make contact and put the ball in play. Its not necessarially an OBP position.

This is why Cameron was a flawed #2 hitter. While his OBP was better than LoDuca's... he K'ed way too much for the #2 spot.


I disagree. It definitely helps for the #2 hitter to be a quality all-around hitter, but having a guy up there just making productive outs all of the time is a complete waste of one of the most important lineup slots.

Yes, he needs to know what to do when the leadoff guy gets on, but he also needs to serve as the 'backup' leadoff guy when the leadoff guy makes an out 60%+ of the time. And that is why it is more important - because the majority of the time the leadoff guy does NOT get on base for the #2 guy to do 'the little things'.

In regards to the Cameron, he just sucked in the #2 spot - however he made his outs. He could have grounded out/flied out an additional 54 times instead of striking out, but it wouldn't have changed his .310 OBP and .237 BA in the 2-hole.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

senor_mike wrote:
The job of the #2 hitter is to make contact and put the ball in play. Its not necessarially an OBP position.




But its such a load of horseshit IMO. LoDuca is batting just under .300. People are making it sound like he doesn't get on base. He has a decent average and leads the NL in doubles from that position.

So big deal he doesn't walk alot. Why did Reyes get a free pass last year with his .310 OBP and zero walks... and MANY MORE K's than LoDuca... batting in the leadoff position where OBP means even more.

But LoDuca gets slammed by everyone here. I'm sorry... but I don't buy it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

poopdoop wrote:
Sorry Red you're never going to make me believe a guy who hits 40 plus homers should be batting second...If they can find a second baseman who can get on base all the time than I'd move LoDuca out of the 2 hole...until than leave him there...they've done ok with him in that spot


When did Beltran become a 40 home run per year guy? The perception of Beltran is so skewed now that he's had a power surge so far this season. He's hit 30 home runs once in his career. That doesn't make him a power hitter per se. I didn't say move him now. I'm simply saying that he's more suited to be a 2 hitter, and is pretty much the only guy that you'd put there in the Mets lineup if that was the game plan.

The lineup is decent and they get by with what they have, but come on. LoDuca is not a 2 hitter, and Beltran is not really a # 3 hitter, although he has been playing the part so far this year.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DjPiLL wrote:
But its such a load of horseshit IMO. LoDuca is batting just under .300. People are making it sound like he doesn't get on base. He has a decent average and leads the NL in doubles from that position.

So big deal he doesn't walk alot. Why did Reyes get a free pass last year with his .310 OBP and zero walks... and MANY MORE K's than LoDuca... batting in the leadoff position where OBP means even more.

But LoDuca gets slammed by everyone here. I'm sorry... but I don't buy it.


LoDuca hitting #2 is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things. His OBP is .330, which is below average, but he somewhat compensates for it in other ways (which you pointed out). It still does not make him a "good" #2, but he is doing enough that he isn't a real detriment to the offense. That said, these secondary skills would be just as (or nearly as) effective in the 6/7 slots as they would the 2 slot.

Back to my original point for a second, the Mets don't have a better option at the 2-spot anyway - unless you trade for a 2B with OBP skills. Still, will that player be significantly better when Pornstache is also posting a killer .500+ SLG? I can't necessarily say yes.

Whatever the case, I do agree with you that LoDuca hitting #2 right now is being blown out of proportion. I just don't agree that he's been a good #2.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

senor_mike wrote:


LoDuca hitting #2 is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things. His OBP is .330, which is below average, but he somewhat compensates for it in other ways (which you pointed out). It still does not make him a "good" #2, but he is doing enough that he isn't a real detriment to the offense. That said, these secondary skills would be just as (or nearly as) effective in the 6/7 slots as they would the 2 slot.

Back to my original point for a second, the Mets don't have a better option at the 2-spot anyway - unless you trade for a 2B with OBP skills. Still, will that player be significantly better when Pornstache is also posting a killer .500+ SLG? I can't necessarily say yes.

Whatever the case, I do agree with you that LoDuca hitting #2 right now is being blown out of proportion. I just don't agree that he's been a good #2.



I can say LoDuca is an "average" number two hitter. Not great... but certainly not bad. Could you agree with that?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DjPiLL wrote:
senor_mike wrote:


LoDuca hitting #2 is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things. His OBP is .330, which is below average, but he somewhat compensates for it in other ways (which you pointed out). It still does not make him a "good" #2, but he is doing enough that he isn't a real detriment to the offense. That said, these secondary skills would be just as (or nearly as) effective in the 6/7 slots as they would the 2 slot.

Back to my original point for a second, the Mets don't have a better option at the 2-spot anyway - unless you trade for a 2B with OBP skills. Still, will that player be significantly better when Pornstache is also posting a killer .500+ SLG? I can't necessarily say yes.

Whatever the case, I do agree with you that LoDuca hitting #2 right now is being blown out of proportion. I just don't agree that he's been a good #2.



I can say LoDuca is an "average" number two hitter. Not great... but certainly not bad. Could you agree with that?


I can agree with that. Below-average OBP, above-average secondary skills.

Consensus reached! rk01_beviamocisu

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Beltrans coming into his prime as far as power is concerned...didn't he hit 40 homers the year he got traded to houston?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

poopdoop wrote:
I think Beltrans coming into his prime as far as power is concerned...didn't he hit 40 homers the year he got traded to houston?


No, he hit 38 HR's that year.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DjPiLL wrote:
For the past few years... our biggest problem was the amount of K's we were taking in the #2 hole. Look at our prior #2 batters (Cameron, Matsui).

We finally have a guy batting second that puts the ball in play... and people are wondering how Reyes is set to break the record for runs scored.

Coincidence?


Loduca batting behind reyes has NOTHING to do with reyes scoring runs

Reyes is being more patient at the plate

Reyes has 99 runs scored last year with a low OBP now this year he gets up the OBP is more patient and thats why he is going to score runs

not because some slow powerless catcher is taking pitches

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DjPiLL wrote:
senor_mike wrote:
The job of the #2 hitter is to make contact and put the ball in play. Its not necessarially an OBP position.




But its such a load of horseshit IMO. LoDuca is batting just under .300. People are making it sound like he doesn't get on base. He has a decent average and leads the NL in doubles from that position.

So big deal he doesn't walk alot. Why did Reyes get a free pass last year with his .310 OBP and zero walks... and MANY MORE K's than LoDuca... batting in the leadoff position where OBP means even more.

But LoDuca gets slammed by everyone here. I'm sorry... but I don't buy it.



gee lets see..........

Reyes gets a free pass by most fans because he scores runs steals bases and is a catalyst for the offense

Let me see Loduca spark the team like Reyes does and ill give him a free pass

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, he hit 38...I was off by two

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StAiNdRuLeZ wrote:
not because some slow powerless catcher is taking pitches




Hmmmmm... "powerless" catcher that leads all other number two hitters with 20 doubles.

Yeah... real "powerless" indeed. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a joke. When you have no real arguments you reach for things like "leads #2 hitters in doubles!" Let's look at the complete numbers:

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Where's Lo Duca on this list - I can't find him? Oh - there he is, 12th out of 17 #2 hitters with 200 plate appearances. Not exactly what you're looking for on a team with championship aspirations. And let's not forget his 7 GIDPs. But at least he doesn't strike out.

And Reyes scored 100 runs last year. I have a feeling his increase this year has a little more to do with Beltran's .250 increase in OPS and Reyes himself being much better than Lo Duca wasting space in between them.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The joke is on you, Juvelera. You called him "useless and garbage" and he's continued to shove it straight up your ass. No matter how many bullshit stats you find to paint him in a negative light, the fact is he continues to help the 2006 New York Mets be a better team.

Duke is a good solid catcher and he's been fantastic for us in a whole bunch of ways.

He may not be a starting all-star caliber catcher, but he does a lot of things to help a team win.

You can't see that, because you've got your head buried in a stat sheet while the game moves along with out you.

I'm not sure why you have such a beef against this guy. He's been a good solid addition, and I'm not sure how much more you want out of a guy.

You can hope and dream of a Ramon Catsro led catching corp, but while you salivate over that dismal thought the rest of the Mets fans understand we've got a nice catcher in Duke.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StAiNdRuLeZ wrote:
DjPiLL wrote:
senor_mike wrote:
The job of the #2 hitter is to make contact and put the ball in play. Its not necessarially an OBP position.




But its such a load of horseshit IMO. LoDuca is batting just under .300. People are making it sound like he doesn't get on base. He has a decent average and leads the NL in doubles from that position.

So big deal he doesn't walk alot. Why did Reyes get a free pass last year with his .310 OBP and zero walks... and MANY MORE K's than LoDuca... batting in the leadoff position where OBP means even more.

But LoDuca gets slammed by everyone here. I'm sorry... but I don't buy it.



gee lets see..........

Reyes gets a free pass by most fans because he scores runs steals bases and is a catalyst for the offense

Let me see Loduca spark the team like Reyes does and ill give him a free pass


No you won't Staind. You despise the guy. I still haven't figured out who you think would be a better #2 in our current lineup, or who you think is so much more qualified to start the all star game. He won't be remembered as the best C in the history of the franchise, but he's not nearly the dog you want to believe he is.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HireDePodesta wrote:
A high batting average is nice, but it doesn't really mean much when you don't have much power and refuse to draw walks.

I know, I know, "LoDuca has to take pitches for Reyes!!" Should we discount some of Jose's numbers then since he's hurting poor Paulie so much?


Phew, I thought Hire was going to say "First half Lo..."

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I already stated my prefered lineup but for some reason people think Beltran can't bat second

and IF loduca played like Reyes i woudl give him credit but he is nothing special

Mcann or Barett should be the alstar catcher

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure Beltran could hit 2nd, but he'd be losing RBI opportuntiesthere. I'd rather put him where he has the most RBI opps than move him to #2 and weaken the rest of the lineup.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

look at loducas career stats hitting leadoff. seems like he would get on base more if he wanted to, but lots of time he tries to move reyes over or let him steal, which is why his OBP is lower than it should be. if he were fast he would be an ideal #2 hitter. regardless, he is the best #2 hitter this team can use. there are no other options other than Chavez, who is not patient enough to hit 2.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*cough*

*ahem* .302 average *ahem*

*cough*
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